{"id":892,"date":"2024-05-21T23:46:55","date_gmt":"2024-05-22T03:46:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/?p=892"},"modified":"2024-05-21T23:49:02","modified_gmt":"2024-05-22T03:49:02","slug":"courtroom-art-an-interview-with-joseph-papin-new-york-and-company-1987-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/courtroom-art-an-interview-with-joseph-papin-new-york-and-company-1987-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Courtroom Art: An Interview with Joseph Papin, New York and Company, 1987 (Part 2)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

(Second half of interview of Joseph Papin [JP] by Leonard Lopate [LL], Aired December 14, 1987)

LL: \u201cWe\u2019re talking with Joe Papin who is more than just a courtroom artist\u2014we\u2019ve introduced you as a courtroom artist\u2014but you have illustrated Washington and UN scenes; military and international affairs; medical, financial, sports and industrial events. Your work has appeared in Harper\u2019s, in Newsweek, in Business Week, in The Reporter, in American Heritage, in Forbes, even in Playboy, the National Review, to present the other side; you contribute to the Herald Tribune, The New York Times, and for the past eighteen years you said, been on the staff of the Daily News. You\u2019ve won all sorts of major awards; [illustrated] 45 adult and children\u2019s books as well, and the winner of six Page One Awards for graphic excellence in journalism\u2014wow, incredible career!\u201d

LL: \u201cBut that doesn\u2019t mean that you\u2019re treated with any more respect than anybody else (\u201cnone whatsoever\u201d) when you\u2019re out there. I understand that there was a bit of a run-in with a Mafia bodyguard when you were covering the Gotti trial.\u201d

JP: \u201cOh, it was magnificent really, because you see, artists establish a rapport with the people\u2014there is no barrier. After a little while, you would far rather say hello, be civil, establish some human contact. And it\u2019s quickly done, because as I say, everyone is concerned about how they look. There\u2019s often recesses, at each opportunity most of the people quickly come over. You say, \u2018Hello, how are you.\u2019 They say, \u2018Let me take a look.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cAnd one day, at the Gotti trial, I was drawing, with my head down toward my paper, when a well-manicured hand appeared under my nose, and a deep voice said, \u2018What\u2019s this.\u2019 And, recalling my two years in the Army, and the idea that when I asked a major one day if the order I was about to give was a proper one, he said, \u2018Who cares if it\u2019s proper. But never forget the command voice and the command posture.\u2019 I looked up and I saw a man who had both.\u201d

LL: \u201cAnd a gun probably as well.\u201d

JP: \u201cNo, John had nothing on.\u201d

LL: \u201cThis is John Gotti himself?\u201d

JP: \u201cJohn Gotti himself, and I said, \u2018I don’t understand.\u2019 And he said, \u2018This.\u2019 Again, without extending a finger, his hand clasped, he threw his hand down in front of my drawing. I said, \u2018I don\u2019t understand what you\u2019re talking about.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cHe said, \u2018Look. The judge is old. You’ve drawn an old judge. Good. But this.\u2019 And then I recognized that he was pointing to a picture, to a drawing of Diane Giacalone, the U.S. Attorney on the case. He said, \u2018You\u2019ve drawn her pretty. She isn\u2019t pretty, she\u2019s ugly.\u2019 And immediately the group joined in. One said, \u2018She\u2019s skinny.\u2019 Another one said, \u2018Entombed.\u2019 Another one said, \u2018Embalmed.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cAnd I thought, \u2018Oh my, that\u2019s really wonderful!\u2019 I said, \u2018Look Mr. Gotti, I’ve got to do the best by everyone I draw.\u2019 He said, \u2018The judge, good; this, ugly.\u2019 And he turned on his heel and walked away.\u201d

LL: \u201cWell you made him look good-looking.”

JP: \u201cWell he is a prepossessing man, and he does have, ah, a charisma, there\u2019s no doubt about it.\u201d

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Joseph Papin Courtroom Illustration Collection, Library of Congress number: PR 13 CN 2015:128.1349<\/em>

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Joseph Papin, Daily News, September 5, 1986<\/em>

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Joseph Papin, Daily News, September 11, 1986<\/em>

LL: \u201cHow conscious are you of the proceedings themselves, are you so involved in capturing the likeness and the drama of the moment that you sometimes lose track of just what’s going on?\u201d

JP: \u201cWell the only disability I suffer from is a loss of hearing, it started in the Army, but I try to pay as acute attention as I possibly can because I feel it’s my obligation, not only to draw, but to understand the mechanics of what is happening so that I can be as accurate and as objective as possible.\u201d

JP: \u201cIt just so happened that following, when I wrote this, I mean when the reporter listening in on the Gotti episode said \u2018Gee, this will make a great story. I said, \u2018Please put in to it that everyone is concerned with how they look.\u2019 Instead, he wrote\u2014”

LL: \u201cIn the New York Times.\u201d

JP: \u201cNo, the Daily News\u2014said that, ‘Papin said that they\u2019re all exceedingly vain.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cWell two days later I got in the elevator and there was Rampino, the very broad-shouldered enforcer, and Carneglia, described as the bodyguard, and he said, \u2018Hey, how come you don\u2019t draw\u2019\u2014he said, no, \u2018How tall do you think I am?\u2019 \u2018Six foot three.\u2019 He said, \u2018Why do you draw my head on the same level as the others?\u2019 And I said, \u2018Well because the editor\u2019 and he said, \u2018Never mind that, from now on draw me standing up.\u2019 And Carneglia leaned forward and he shook his jowls at me and he said, \u2018You think I ought to lose a little weight?\u2019 and I said, \u2018Not really.\u2019 He said, \u2018We\u2019re doing a picture of you and you’re not going to like it.\u2019 I said, \u2018You are?\u2019 and he said, \u2018That\u2019s right.\u2019 And he said, \u2018And when it\u2019s done, we\u2019re going to publish it in the Mafia Magazine.\u2019 A wonderful little antidote, and really\u2014”

LL: \u201cIn a way they have more to complain about with you than if you were a photographer, because a photographer just snaps the picture, but you have the ability to make somebody look better, look worse, you could make them smile or frown\u2014\u201d

JP: \u201cWell I always say if there\u2019s any complaints, that\u2019s a large wart on the end of the nose with three or four hairs coming out, but in reality I don’t <\/em>do that. There is\u2014\u201d

LL: \u201cBut do you editorialize, do you think that if you\u2019re watching a trial and you develop a sympathy for the defendant or for somebody else on the trial that even subconsciously you draw them in a more sympathetic way?\u201d

JP: \u201cWell, possibly a rape victim or something of the sort, or a child who\u2019s been abused, but the point of it is that some of these people are so prepossessing and their activities are so self- defining by their vigorous gesticulations or their shouting or screaming\u2014at the Howard Beach trial sometimes you hear this thunder, thunder and screaming and posturing\u2014and it reminds one of Oliver Wendell Holmes\u2019 famous advice to young lawyers that if they had the law, to pound the law, if they had the facts, pound the facts, if they had neither the law nor facts, to the pound the lectern, and by Jingo, there it is.\u201d

LL: \u201cYou watch the coverage of the trials on television after you’ve covered them during the day, do you get a feeling that the public really doesn’t know what’s going on? I am totally confused about what\u2019s going on in that Howard Beach trial\u2014I read the newspaper articles, I watch the television coverage, and yet I’m not sure who’s making the best impression there.\u201d

JP: \u201cWell I think, you see, the News does not share my work with television, therefore it appears only in print\u2014if it appears. But watching what the others do [the other courtroom artists], because I understand it, I can see how beautifully they have synthesized and gathered together, in the 60 seconds or so, or maybe two minutes at the most, what they must be able to show pictorially\u2014and visually it is always striking\u2014it is the very heart of what\u2019s going on.\u201d

JP: \u201cNow sometimes, unfortunately, the film tends to make it an event, an entertainment. And we must <\/em>know, and we must be able to understand, what is going on, in order to have some sort of an opinion rather than just \u2018oh they\u2019re making noise out there, or someone’s either being railroaded, whatever.\u2019 The lawyers get a chance to re-try their case, outside in the hallway, or on the courthouse steps, and they often do so.\u201d

LL: \u201cBut the jury sees a long day\u2019s proceedings, the same thing that you see. What do you think is going on in the Howard trial case?\u201d

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Joseph Papin, Daily News, November 3, 1987<\/em>

JP: \u201cWell it is a case where, unfortunately, I think the noise is all that there is to\u2014it was a mob, there was a victim\u2014the best face one can possibly put on it is that it was an accident\u2014but it was an accident because of certain reasons and certain people were there, and everyone in our life is accountable. And, the lines are drawn. The jury must decide, of course, to what degree, but once the ingredients are shown\u2014someone coming through the neighborhood, other people protesting it, for whatever reason\u2014something terrible happened. The facts are presented\u2014and the facts are presented\u2014weight is given to it, and the summations are going on now. So the best they can do is try to explain the case of their particular client, hoping for some indulgence from the jury, or some special circumstance to plead the reasons why\u2014they have to decide.\u201d

LL: \u201cYou have watched more trials than some theater critics have seen plays and I imagine you are a real expert on them. Do you think at times, \u2018Wow, this lawyer is botching up the job,\u2019 or, \u2018This guy is winning all sorts of points.\u2019 \u2018This is a great witness.\u2019 Do you watch them as well as drama?\u201d

JP: \u201cOh, without a doubt. There are some lawyers who can talk, some scream, some put it all together, and as Barry Slotnick is elegant and mannered and never raises his voice, David Breitbart, whose favorite expression is that \u2018cross-examination is the blast furnace of truth\u2019 is a magnificent cross-examiner. And he moves, from the back\u2014you watch him feint, his shoulders\u2014he’s a compact little guy, and he moves just like a fighter. And when he delivers his big punch, you\u2019re ready for it. It is\u2014some of these men are magnificent in their command of their hands, their voice, and of course, they know the facts and they know the case. I\u2019m often rewarded just to be able to be present when some of these people are trying their cases.\u201d

LL: \u201cIn Howard Beach, the most prominent of the defense attorneys is Steven Murphy, do you think he’s good?\u201d

JP: \u201cWell he\u2019s certainly loud, and I think he\u2019s double-jointed. He moves so many ways and so many different, I did a little funny cartoon showing him as a banty rooster in the beginning. But he does assault. He is an old-time type lawyer and he just literally grabs the jury by the nape of the neck and just screams into their faces\u2014what he wants them to understand is his version of what happened.\u201d

LL: \u201cDo you get a feeling about how a trial is going to go since you\u2019ve been to so many, do you get a feeling that this one is a not guilty verdict or a guilty verdict?\u201d

JP: \u201cWell yes, you do get a feeling and sometimes you’re very surprised, because with Giuliani having a blitzkrieg against the mafia, the mob, and one trial right after the other\u2014going down like ten pins\u2014John Gotti and his entire crew were acquitted, and it was stunning, absolutely stunning. Just before the verdict came in, he was over looking at my drawing, and as though to put a finish, and a pleasant one, to all of the talk that had gone on, he said, \u2018I just want you to know that I think your drawings are wonderful and worth $5,000 each.\u2019 I said, \u2018Gosh Mr. Gotti, you should be my editor!\u2019 He said, \u2018He thinks I should be his editor.\u2019 Just then the jury came in and he was pronounced \u2018Not Guilty\u2019 by a foreman who said everything he had to say in strong direct response to the question for the clerk on each and every count: \u2018Not guilty,\u2019 \u2018Not proved,\u2019 Not guilty.\u2019

JP: \u201cSome you die for, like Jean Harris. I mean a poor woman put into that situation, and, my own mother, in growing up, told me that one should never mess with a schoolmarm, and unfortunately the judge, in solemn tones, said that he was constrained by law to sentence her, there was nothing he could do. But he apologized for having his hands tied. Other cases, you’re just glad the people are convicted because they’re bad, bad people.\u201d

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Joseph Papin, Daily News, February 18, 1981<\/em>

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Joseph Papin, Jean Harris Breaks Down on Stand, February 6, 1981 (Library of Congress, Drawing Justice)<\/em>

LL: \u201cHave you ever been at a trial where you felt that the decision was a gross miscarriage of justice, where you saw incompetence in one of the lawyers, or a judge who came in with a bias of his own, or her own?\u201d

JP: \u201cThe judges, according to some attorneys, are the prosecutors\u2019 best friends. There are cases, I suppose, where I would have thought that the case could have been made better than through an informer. When an informer gets up there who has turned, like Jimmy \u2018The Weasel\u2019 Frattiano. Cardinali, in this case [Gotti trial], he admitted to killing seven people, showing remorse for only one who happened to be a college kid. He said, \u2019But they wanted him killed\u2019 so he dragged him out and shot him behind the ear, when in actuality, I think he had accounted for twenty-five. I thought\u2014\u201d

JP: \u201cOr up in New Haven, at the corruption trials. Giuliani, to me, could be an evangelist on the circuit, he radiates righteous and damnation for the sinners. You know that it’s a holy fire coming. On the other hand, the man who is their main witness was such a disgusting, repulsive person\u2014he had done everything that one could possibly do outside of murder\u2014and the old joke about the sex therapist with his patients is a joke until you run across someone who\u2019s up there who\u2019s actually done that. Yet time and again, his version of things, and with his marvelous recall, won the day, and you knew ultimately he would be plead for by the attorney’s office, and he got a very modest sentence. All the others, you know\u2014Justice.\u201d

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Joseph Papin, Geoffrey Lindenhauer is cross-examined by Thomas Puccio (Daily News, October 4, 1986)<\/em>

LL: \u201cYou’re an artist who comes out of a long tradition of artists who’ve covered public events. Are you conscious of the line back to Daumier and beyond?\u201d

JP: \u201cOh yes, I think we all know our antecedents. And where I went to school, working my way through school at Ohio State, I like to say\u2014\u2018round on the ends and high in the middle\u2019\u2014we learned the fundamentals. And the fundamentals were taught again and again and again so that one learned hand-eye coordination and you learned to draw exactly what was there. So by the time you were on the scene, being a reportorial artist, objectivity and honesty\u2014being true to what you looked at\u2014was part of the standard that you tried to adhere to.\u201d

JP: \u201cI remember my first job, I was still on active duty and I’d gone to see Harper’s Magazine\u2019s Russell Lynes\u2014he entertained one afternoon a week. He would let artists into his study, a little library, and we would sit along the wall and then he would come up, and you would put your things down in front of you and he would look at them. Ramrod straight, with iron gray hair and steel-rimmed glasses. There was this young lady ahead of me, my first time, and she put down her portfolio. He said, \u2018Young woman, do you read my publication?\u2019 and she said, \u2018Yes sir, I do.\u2019 He said, \u2018I doubt that, or you wouldn\u2019t take my time and the time of these good people with pastels, good day.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cSo I put my things down and he said, \u2018You have no portfolio?\u2019 I said, \u2018No sir.\u2019 He said, \u2018You don’t even have anything in order?\u2019 I said, \u201cNo sir.\u201d He said, \u201cBut you did these drawings where you drew them, is that true?\u2019 I said, \u201cYes sir.\u2019 He said, \u201cAre you in the Army?\u2019 I said, \u2018Well I’m just getting off active duty.\u2019 He said, \u2018This isn’t the Army, this is civilian life, you can forget the sir.\u2019 He said, \u2018So few artists attempt or risk anything by drawing on the scene.\u2019 He said, \u2018This is wonderful, if you come back in two weeks I’ll have a job for you.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cSo I came back in two weeks and he said, \u2018Do you know Mike Burger at the New York Times?\u2019 I said, \u2018No sir, I know no one.\u2019 He said, \u2018Well I do,\u2019 and he picked up the phone and he said, \u2018Mike, I\u2019m sending over someone who draws like a wizard, help him out on that article that you\u2019re doing on The Gay Old Lady\u2014the New York Times.\u2019\u201d

JP: \u201cI met this magnificent person and I was so stunned when I realized what an enormously famous man he was that I didn’t ask him if ever the chance were to be I could ask him to put my drawings to his words. But the magazine published by five pages of drawings and so the old rocket began to lift off. Up to that point freelancing\u2014I never did have an agent. I couldn\u2019t get work from the smaller ones because I had nothing at all printed and the big ones said well you don’t have anything from the smaller ones. Consequently, I thank my wife for sticking with me all that time.\u201d

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LL: \u201cYeah but you’ve done very well for yourself since, you probably are the most famous newspaper artist right now in New York. One more question before you leave, Joe. Is there a special seat that you prefer in a courtroom, do you like it\u2014you’ll take any seat that they give you?\u201d

JP: \u201cI’m happy to be there at all. The seat I\u2019d prefer would be right alongside the judge (LL: \u201cThey don\u2019t let you sit there\u201d). But judges indulge us\u2014some judges are so wonderful. Judge Leval, at the Pizza Connection. At the Sharon trial\u2014Judge Sofaer let us sit in the well of the court. And of course, to this day, Judge Weinstein in Brooklyn is so kind to artists. He\u2019s one of the few judges, by the way, who need not wear a black robe to be truly magisterial in his demeanor. So if the artist can simply be there, reflecting, in his own unique way, this moment of history, I think he adds an invaluable contribution.\u201d

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Judge Sofaer, Sharon Trial,<\/em> Joseph Papin Courtroom Illustration Collection, Library of Congress number: PR 13 CN 2015:128.2006<\/em>

LL: \u201cWell Joe Papin is one man who no courtroom\u2014no courtroom, what am I saying\u2014no camera can ever replace and I hope that there will always be a place in our courtrooms or in the events of the day for him. I’m very, very pleased that he’s visited us here on New York and Company. Thank you so much for having visited us. Thank you.\u201d

JP: \u201cThank you.\u201d

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Judge Leval, Pizza Connection Trial, Joseph Papin Courtroom Illustration Collection, Library of Congress number: PR 13 CN 2015:128.3586<\/em>

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Judge Weinstein, Judge Brennan Arraignment, Joseph Papin, Daily News, August 1, 1985<\/em>

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

(Second half of interview of Joseph Papin [JP] by Leonard Lopate [LL], Aired December 14, 1987) LL: \u201cWe\u2019re talking with Joe Papin who is more than just a courtroom artist\u2014we\u2019ve introduced you as a courtroom artist\u2014but you have illustrated Washington and UN scenes; military and international affairs; medical, financial, sports and industrial events. Your work […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[134,108],"tags":[125,130,31,36,9,132,122,131,15,14,13],"class_list":["post-892","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-joseph-papin-interview","category-nyc-trials","tag-courtroom-art","tag-courtroom-illustration","tag-daily-news","tag-joe-papin","tag-joseph-papin","tag-leonard-lopate","tag-library-of-congress","tag-new-york-and-company","tag-new-york-city","tag-on-the-scene-drawing","tag-reportorial-art"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/892","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=892"}],"version-history":[{"count":14,"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/892\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":921,"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/892\/revisions\/921"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=892"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=892"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/josephpapin.com\/Blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=892"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}